COMMUNITY FORUM

MistressEll

08:31PM | 05/23/05
Member Since: 01/30/05
361 lifetime posts
you cannot use 18AWG or 16 AWG or 14AWG on a 20 amp circuit period.

What you're referring to in the FACE of a receptacle is not the same as wiring in a branch circuit. You may not have understood that a 14 AWG a switch lead for a combination circuit that's 20 amps may cause fires.

#2 SA circuits are 20 amps not 15 amps. Try reading your code again. IF receptacles are offered in a NEW CONSTRUCTION garage ONE receptacle must be a SA 20 amp GFCI. The others are allowed to be 15 amp but MUST be GFCI. The overhead receptacle powering the garage door opener does NOT have to be GFCI, and if 15 amp can be combined with a lighting circuit.

#3 Detached structures. You cannot have a metalic return connection to the house. the branch circuit counts as a return. To met the EXCEPTION (for a 3way switch control one at the house) it can only be a lighting only circuit.

#4 The OP posted regards her concerns for A) window for her garage and B) electrical lighting for her garage that faced the alley that her d.h. didn't take care of in the discussion and before contracts were signed.

#5 We're discussing more than just NFPA 70 here regards to a detached structure, and DUH there IS something in NEC regards to luminares outdoors at every residential structure (including detached structures) having lighting at egress points.

There is a restriction on having luminaires on 20 amp circuits in RESIDENTIAL applications with ONE noted exception, i.e. the dedicated SA circuit receptacle allowed to have ONE overhead outlet in addition as long as the circuit ONLY powers the ONE bathroom and NO OTHER OUTLETS.

As usual, the OP got her info and has LONG ago abandonded the string. Go ahead keep arguing with yourself. and again, interestingly enough......you stick by your guns and ONLY reference the NEC and fail to cite which edition YOUR working from Bill. There are OTHER codes involved in the construction of a garage besides electrical code, and other code making bodies besides the NFPA, AND as I correctly advised OP to check with her AHJ regarding which codes were in effect.

Finally, Try reading an ENTIRE string, For example you're jumping in on the GE low voltage switches, if you checked the OP's photos you'd know what system SHE had, and she had not only been helped with the correct replacements from one of three sources, and ONE that didn't require any retrofitting whatsoever, and had LONG AGO found her way before you ever entered the fray.

MistressEll

09:32PM | 05/23/05
Member Since: 01/30/05
361 lifetime posts
Bill: your free-standing table lamp plugs into a receptacle. It draws Amps via that 15 amp receptacle that is rated for a 20 amp flow-through for the branch circuit and is or should be connected to the branch circuit with minimum 12 AWG. That lamp cord in your "think about this" example doesn't apply. Some lamps and cord and plug devices have fusable links or other protection within so in the event it draws more power than is safely rated that fuse goes and no more power (a christmas light string is a good example).

Also keep in mind that that UL listed number was only good ON THE DAY it was made. If they've changed the STANDARDS since your lamp was made, it wouldn't necessarily meet standards TODAY, nor would it necessarily be considered SAFE by standards today.

combination luminare and cord and plug receptacle BRANCH CIRCUITS in single family residences are designed as DEMAND circuits and by the code citation I already provided are to be designed to 1440va MAX and be LIMITED. that's 12 amps at 120 volts, not 12.3 amps not 16. That means a 15 amp circuit gauged and over-current protected properly at 15 amps. That means if you have GFCI receptacles they are 15amp/15amp flow through receptacles on a 15 amp circuit. That means if you have a GFCI breaker, its a 15 amp breaker. Don't argue with me, the limitation and prohibition has been there a LONG TIME. The only EXCEPTION and it is RECENT is that dedicated 20 amp circuit in the bathroom with ONE overhead outlet which can be a combination service that includes a luminaire, hence the word EXCEPTION. But the 1440 ka has NO exception. it doesn't say 1460ka it says 1440 ka. I'm sorry you don't like it, but get yourself a seat on the committee body that governs that part of the NEC and make your arguments there, others have tried, it hasn't changed.

Billhart

08:58AM | 05/24/05
Member Since: 04/25/05
1918 lifetime posts
"Author Subject/Content

MistressEll

Registered:

01-31-2005 Bill you're a nut

May 24th, 2005 12:31 AM"

It is not nice to name call. BTW, why don't you post on FHB's Breaktime anymore?

"Bill: your free-standing table lamp plugs into a receptacle. It draws Amps via that 15 amp receptacle that is rated for a 20 amp flow-through for the branch circuit and is or should be connected to the branch circuit with minimum 12 AWG. That lamp cord in your "think about this" example doesn't apply. Some lamps and cord and plug devices have fusable links or other protection within so in the event it draws more power than is safely rated that fuse goes and no more power (a christmas light string is a good example)."

No it does not DRAW 15 amps. It is RATED for 15 amps. The amount that is flows at any one time depends on the load and the combination of the impedence of all of the wiring involved upto and including the lamp cord.

It can vary from 0 to 0.5 amps (60 watt table lamp) to a 100 amps or more. Of course that would be a dead short within the lamp and it would only last for a fraction of a second before either the breaker blew or 18 guage lamp cord fused.

And it is very rare that any plug in device has any overload protection at the plug. The only exception that I know of is the christmas tree lights, which by the way are not #18 wire, but much smaller.

Look at the lamps, TV's, boom boxes, etc, etc that are all pluged into 15 or 20 amp receptaceles and with #18 or 16 wire and no secondary overload protection in the plug (and in most case none at all).

"combination luminare and cord and plug receptacle BRANCH CIRCUITS in single family residences are designed as DEMAND circuits and by the code citation I already provided are to be designed to 1440va MAX and be LIMITED"

Again you are completely MAKING UP CODE.

That is not what is says.

(99NEC) 210-6 "Branch Circuit VOLTAGE LIMITAIONS." (Note - this section about what voltage the circuits can be not the size of loads).

"(a) Ocupany Limitaion. In dweloiing units ... the voltage shall not exceed 120 volts between continues that supply the terminals of the following:

(1) Lighting fixture.

(2) Cord and plug-connected loads 1440 volt-ampreres, nominal, or less, or less than 1/4 hp."

What that says is that you have 240 (or 277 or 480) volt circuits in residence to SUPPLY lights or to SUPPLY SMALL (1440 VA OR 1/4hp) LOADS.

However, if you have larger loads then you use 240 or other circuits.

TAHT SECTION HAS ABOSLUTLEY NO LIMITATION ON THE LOAD THAT YOU HAVE ON THAT CIRCUIT. NONE, ZILCH, ZERO AFFECT.

However, there are other sections that do control the types and size of loads on different circuits.

"you cannot use 18AWG or 16 AWG or 14AWG on a 20 amp circuit period.

What you're referring to in the FACE of a receptacle is not the same as wiring in a branch circuit.."

No I am not.

I am talking about FIXTURE WIRING.

(99NEC) 240-4 (b)(1)" Fxiture Wring. Fixture wire shal be permittred to be rtapped to the branch circuit conductors of a branch circuit of Article 210 in accordance with the following:

20 amp circituis No. 15, up to 50 ft (15.2 m) of run lenght"

"#2 SA circuits are 20 amps not 15 amps. Try reading your code again. IF receptacles are offered in a NEW CONSTRUCTION garage ONE receptacle must be a SA 20 amp GFCI. The others are allowed to be 15 amp but MUST be GFCI. The overhead receptacle powering the garage door opener does NOT have to be GFCI, and if 15 amp can be combined with a lighting circuit."

SA? Stand alone? Special Application?

In either case the code does not reconize that those terms.

The only place that the code calls out 20 amp ciruits are the kitchen counter top, bathroom and laundry circuit.

All other circuits can be either 15 or 20 amp, including dedicated ones. For example you can run a 15 amp circuit dedicated for the refigerator.

And on 20 amp circuits, if the receptacle is a duplex receptacle it can be a 15 amp rated receptacle. Regardless if it is a GFCI or not. However, it does have to be rated for 20 amp feed through only if other devices are connected downstream. But AFAIK all of the 15 amp GFCI's are rated 20 amps feed through.

"#3 Detached structures. You cannot have a metalic return connection to the house. the branch circuit counts as a return. To met the EXCEPTION (for a 3way switch control one at the house) it can only be a lighting only circuit."

Again you are complete confused. You are saying that you can't have a branch circuit to a garage because it is a "metalic return".

You are totally and completely confused. There are two limiatations. One is that you are limited to a single branch circuit or a feeder to a sub-panel. And that has nothing to do with metallic return paths.

The 2nd part is how the EGC is handled in a sub-panel in a detached building. There are 2 options and part of selecting one of those optiosn is whether there is a metallic return path or not.

"As usual, the OP got her info and has LONG ago abandonded the string. Go ahead keep arguing with yourself. and again, interestingly enough......you stick by your guns and ONLY reference the NEC and fail to cite which edition YOUR working from Bill."

Actually I did site the version of the NEC that I was referencing. You need read my commnents again.

And you are right there are other codes.

There are codes that spec the footings required. And with out the footings you can't have a garage with lights. so why did you not ask about the footings.

But so far you have never referenced anything code that prohibits lights on a 20 amp circuit.

"Finally, Try reading an ENTIRE string, For example you're jumping in on the GE low voltage switches, if you checked the OP's photos you'd know what system SHE had, and she had not only been helped with the correct replacements from one of three sources, and ONE that didn't require any retrofitting whatsoever, and had LONG AGO found her way before you ever entered the fray"

I did read the whole thing. And no she was not "helped". She said that she was going to get an electrican AFTER you came up with some scheme that would require replacing all of the switches at that location.

And these threads are not just about the orginal question. There are many, many luckers for each thread.

In fact someone just ask a different question in that thread.

And while I was not able to give then a quaranteed answer, I did have a couple of leads for them.


k2

02:18PM | 05/24/05
Member Since: 06/06/03
1250 lifetime posts
Hi Bill,

Interesting--your references to Breaktime. I'm sure quite a few of our readers have been over to the Taunton forums and read those posts.

In the meantime, am I the only one who's interested in seeing an end to this line of "discussion"?

Thanks Bill for staying professional. And, apologies to Lynden (the original poster) for unwittingly kicking off this unnecessary maelstrom.

By the way, Lynden, how goes it? Garage is probably built by now, LOL!

Regards,

-k2 in CO

Moderator, Miscellaneous Forum

http://www.bobvila.com/BBS/Miscellaneous

MistressEll

09:40AM | 05/26/05
Member Since: 01/30/05
361 lifetime posts
nut (nut) n. [ME. nutte

MistressEll

09:42AM | 05/26/05
Member Since: 01/30/05
361 lifetime posts
nut (nut) n. 1. THE DRY, ONE-SEEDED FRUIT of any of various trees or shrubs, CONSISTING OF a kernel, often edible, IN A HARD AND WOODY OR TOUGH AND LEATHERY SHELL, more or less separable from the seed itself, as the walnut, pecan, chestnut, acorn, etc. 4. a small block, usually of metal, with a threaded hole through the center, for screwing onto a bolt, etc. 6. [Colloq.] the initial COST OF AN UNDERTAKING, or the amount of money it is necessary to take in before a profile is realized on it. 7 [Slang] a) the head b) [pl.] the testicles: a vulgar usage. 8. [Slang] a) a foolish, crazy, or eccentric person b) a devotee; fan.

Vi. nutted, nutting to hunt for or gather nuts, --hard (or tough) nut to crack A PERSON, PROBLEM, OR THING DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND OR DEAL WITH --off one's nut [Slang] foolish, silly, or crazy.

Now, why would you ASSUME that the only POSSIBLE meaning of my use of the word NUT was derogatory?

Just as you fail to understand what I say, and READ things into them that aren't there...like the idea that I in anyway indicated that LAMPS in general use fusable plugs (I gave example of holiday lighting strings with low capacity gauge wire using that) or that in any way I indicated that a cord and plug equiped lamp DREW 15 amps (I did not, only said that it drew the AMPS it did via that 15 amp receptacle with a 20 amp flow-through on your 20 amp circuit) is beyond me. That you introduced LAMPS into a discussion about luminaire & receptacle combination circuits amazed me in the first place.


Jim D

05:02AM | 05/27/05
Member Since: 01/06/01
345 lifetime posts
Handyman - hi, maybe the BBS area needs a new thread for posting to - a Code Discussion area? I understand there may be other BBSes for that - I've seen references to Tauton, Breaktime, and FHB. But, it looks like NEC and other code discussions take place here as well.

Billhart - hi, MistressEll's dictionary quote made me think immediately of the old saying - Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. To be fair, I think she'd have to admit that the portions of her definition that she's attributing to you - 8b and the all caps portion of the verb - apply to her as well.

MistressEll - hi, you obviously have a great deal of knowledge, you know your NEC, and you have expertise in the construction world. I don't believe that everyone who interprets things differently than you is saying that you are totally wrong or have no expertise. Having watched the postings for the last few months you've been here, I do see where you've been "provoked" and I see where you've done the "provoking". To me - and I'm not an electrician, I'm an electronics technician - if I were posting here and started seeing references to the NEC, I know whatever task I was taking on would require a certified electrician. That's probably why the original posters seem to disappear from the thread.

To All - I hope everyone enjoys the holiday weekend. Please take a moment to remember and honor a veteran who's either with us or has departed our ranks. Whether or not you agreed with our involvement in any present or past conflict - remember the troops go where they're ordered to go and the vast majority serve with honor and pride as Americans. Our troops over in Soutwest Asia and Iraq are doing great things behind the scenes - rebuilding schools, restoring electric grids, even getting their units back home to gather clothing and school supplies for distribution to the war's most innocent victims - the kids.

How do I know? I'm an active duty Air Force enlisted man (E-9/CMSgt) who's currently and voluntarily serving past his mandatory retirement date. I'll have 31 years of service next month and just extended to reach 32 years when I retire next July because I was asked to stay on (and staying past 30 years doesn't improve my retirement check). I've lived overseas (2 years in Ankara, Turkey and 4 years near Tokyo, Japan) as well as in various places in the USA. I see the efforts of our troops that the press doesn't always report. I defend their freedom to report what they think the American public needs to know just like I defend our freedom to post our comments on BBSes like this all over the country. I appreciate your support for me and the other troops who served before me, serve with me, and will take my place when I move on. Thanks, one and all - Jim D/West Point, VA
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