01-31-2005 Bill you're a nut
May 24th, 2005 12:31 AM"
It is not nice to name call. BTW, why don't you post on FHB's Breaktime anymore?
"Bill: your free-standing table lamp plugs into a receptacle. It draws Amps via that 15 amp receptacle that is rated for a 20 amp flow-through for the branch circuit and is or should be connected to the branch circuit with minimum 12 AWG. That lamp cord in your "think about this" example doesn't apply. Some lamps and cord and plug devices have fusable links or other protection within so in the event it draws more power than is safely rated that fuse goes and no more power (a christmas light string is a good example)."
No it does not DRAW 15 amps. It is RATED for 15 amps. The amount that is flows at any one time depends on the load and the combination of the impedence of all of the wiring involved upto and including the lamp cord.
It can vary from 0 to 0.5 amps (60 watt table lamp) to a 100 amps or more. Of course that would be a dead short within the lamp and it would only last for a fraction of a second before either the breaker blew or 18 guage lamp cord fused.
And it is very rare that any plug in device has any overload protection at the plug. The only exception that I know of is the christmas tree lights, which by the way are not #18 wire, but much smaller.
Look at the lamps, TV's, boom boxes, etc, etc that are all pluged into 15 or 20 amp receptaceles and with #18 or 16 wire and no secondary overload protection in the plug (and in most case none at all).
"combination luminare and cord and plug receptacle BRANCH CIRCUITS in single family residences are designed as DEMAND circuits and by the code citation I already provided are to be designed to 1440va MAX and be LIMITED"
Again you are completely MAKING UP CODE.
That is not what is says.
(99NEC) 210-6 "Branch Circuit VOLTAGE LIMITAIONS." (Note - this section about what voltage the circuits can be not the size of loads).
"(a) Ocupany Limitaion. In dweloiing units ... the voltage shall not exceed 120 volts between continues that supply the terminals of the following:
(1) Lighting fixture.
(2) Cord and plug-connected loads 1440 volt-ampreres, nominal, or less, or less than 1/4 hp."
What that says is that you have 240 (or 277 or 480) volt circuits in residence to SUPPLY lights or to SUPPLY SMALL (1440 VA OR 1/4hp) LOADS.
However, if you have larger loads then you use 240 or other circuits.
TAHT SECTION HAS ABOSLUTLEY NO LIMITATION ON THE LOAD THAT YOU HAVE ON THAT CIRCUIT. NONE, ZILCH, ZERO AFFECT.
However, there are other sections that do control the types and size of loads on different circuits.
"you cannot use 18AWG or 16 AWG or 14AWG on a 20 amp circuit period.
What you're referring to in the FACE of a receptacle is not the same as wiring in a branch circuit.."
No I am not.
I am talking about FIXTURE WIRING.
(99NEC) 240-4 (b)(1)" Fxiture Wring. Fixture wire shal be permittred to be rtapped to the branch circuit conductors of a branch circuit of Article 210 in accordance with the following:
20 amp circituis No. 15, up to 50 ft (15.2 m) of run lenght"
"#2 SA circuits are 20 amps not 15 amps. Try reading your code again. IF receptacles are offered in a NEW CONSTRUCTION garage ONE receptacle must be a SA 20 amp GFCI. The others are allowed to be 15 amp but MUST be GFCI. The overhead receptacle powering the garage door opener does NOT have to be GFCI, and if 15 amp can be combined with a lighting circuit."
SA? Stand alone? Special Application?
In either case the code does not reconize that those terms.
The only place that the code calls out 20 amp ciruits are the kitchen counter top, bathroom and laundry circuit.
All other circuits can be either 15 or 20 amp, including dedicated ones. For example you can run a 15 amp circuit dedicated for the refigerator.
And on 20 amp circuits, if the receptacle is a duplex receptacle it can be a 15 amp rated receptacle. Regardless if it is a GFCI or not. However, it does have to be rated for 20 amp feed through only if other devices are connected downstream. But AFAIK all of the 15 amp GFCI's are rated 20 amps feed through.
"#3 Detached structures. You cannot have a metalic return connection to the house. the branch circuit counts as a return. To met the EXCEPTION (for a 3way switch control one at the house) it can only be a lighting only circuit."
Again you are complete confused. You are saying that you can't have a branch circuit to a garage because it is a "metalic return".
You are totally and completely confused. There are two limiatations. One is that you are limited to a single branch circuit or a feeder to a sub-panel. And that has nothing to do with metallic return paths.
The 2nd part is how the EGC is handled in a sub-panel in a detached building. There are 2 options and part of selecting one of those optiosn is whether there is a metallic return path or not.
"As usual, the OP got her info and has LONG ago abandonded the string. Go ahead keep arguing with yourself. and again, interestingly enough......you stick by your guns and ONLY reference the NEC and fail to cite which edition YOUR working from Bill."
Actually I did site the version of the NEC that I was referencing. You need read my commnents again.
And you are right there are other codes.
There are codes that spec the footings required. And with out the footings you can't have a garage with lights. so why did you not ask about the footings.
But so far you have never referenced anything code that prohibits lights on a 20 amp circuit.
"Finally, Try reading an ENTIRE string, For example you're jumping in on the GE low voltage switches, if you checked the OP's photos you'd know what system SHE had, and she had not only been helped with the correct replacements from one of three sources, and ONE that didn't require any retrofitting whatsoever, and had LONG AGO found her way before you ever entered the fray"
I did read the whole thing. And no she was not "helped". She said that she was going to get an electrican AFTER you came up with some scheme that would require replacing all of the switches at that location.
And these threads are not just about the orginal question. There are many, many luckers for each thread.
In fact someone just ask a different question in that thread.
And while I was not able to give then a quaranteed answer, I did have a couple of leads for them.
Get Help from Bob Vila
- Give-Aways & Offers
- Monthly Must Do's
- DIY Project Ideas
- Step-by-Step Guides
- Inspirational Photo Galleries