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bigwind

08:46PM | 02/08/07
Member Since: 02/08/07
11 lifetime posts
Bvelectrical
I have a 30" Sears: Kenmore: Roper drop in range. The repair parts list is good for three models: 45461690 or 911.45565690 or 911.45569690. Don't know where to look for the model numbers but hope questions are answerable the same for all three of these models? If not, tell me and I'll re-post with the exact model tomorrow!

The oven has operated well for varying periods of time but will always quit at some point and display an F3 fault code. If I play with it for a while it will sometimes restart and on at least 2 occasions displayed an F5 code. F5 has never come up first, only after fooling with the thing!?

NOW the oven always quits;displays F3 and will NOT restart for at least an hour or so!

There is no 'Y' in the model number so I'm hoping I'm reading the correct Roper code directory. If so F3 is an Open Sensor or thermal fuse.

1st QUESTION: Am I fairly safe to expect repairing the F3 problem will result in a successful repair OR am I at further risk with the F5 showing up in the past after I fooled with it?

2nd QUESTION: Should I check the thermal fuse first? Where is the thermal fuse located and how do I access it? I can't seem to find it on the diagram? Should I replace it and see if the problem goes away or is it a normal fuse where I either have continuity or I don't? If that is true I assume it must be good because the oven always comes on; doesn't stay on but always comes on?

3rd QUESTION: Is the Sensor I'm looking for located inside the oven cavity in the upper right corner? It looks like a long metal rod protruding into the oven about 5 inches and appears to be held in by two Phillips screws. If I remove the screws does it unplug or how should I remove it? Do I need to unscrew and take the entire Oven Cavity to access where the sensor is attached or do I need to pull the unit out of the counter top? Neither look very easy?

4th Question: How do I test the Sensor? Is there an Ohms parameter that would indicate it is good and if so what is it? Am I correct to assume the sensor is faulty and must be replaced if it is 'Open", no continunity?

Thanks for all the help in advance, bigwind!

DanO

08:42AM | 02/09/07
Member Since: 11/11/02
2271 lifetime posts
** Am I fairly safe to expect repairing the F3 problem will result in a successful repair **

If that's the only problem with it.

** OR am I at further risk with the F5 showing up in the past after I fooled with it? **

That could be a possibility depending on why that error displayed in the first place.

** Should I check the thermal fuse first? **

If it has one, definitely! Not all range models do... in fact it is fairly rare.

** Where is the thermal fuse located **

On models that have one, it is sometimes located under the manifold panel.

** is it a normal fuse where I either have continuity or I don't? **

Yes. AFAIK all "fuses" are that way.

** Is the Sensor I'm looking for located inside the oven cavity in the upper right corner? **

The oven sensor (see the following link) is inside the oven cavity but I have no idea exactly where it is located on your model.

- Kenmore 911.45461690, 911.45565690, 911.45569690 Oven Sensor

LINK > http://www.appliance411.com/data.php?ap=AP2023670

** If I remove the screws does it unplug? **

Yes.

** Do I need to unscrew and take the entire Oven Cavity to access where the sensor is attached or do I need to pull the unit out of the counter top? **

Not usually.

** How do I test the Sensor? **

For resistance. It should read about 1100 ohms when at room temperature.

** Am I correct to assume the sensor is faulty and must be replaced if it is 'Open", no continuity? **

Definitely... although such an extreme failure is rare.

** Don't know where to look for the model number **

You can find tips for locating the model number identification tag on your appliances in the 'Repair Parts' section of my web site linked below.

Dan O.

www.Appliance411.com/parts/?ref411=Kenmore+Range

The Appliance Information Site

=D~~~~~~

bigwind

09:50AM | 02/09/07
Member Since: 02/08/07
11 lifetime posts
Thank you very much for such concise answers. You have helped me greatly!

I am assuming here and deducting from what you said so please correct this statement: If I remove the screws holding the sensor in place, I can simply pull the wire leading away from it and this will cause

the wiring harness into view! I can then unplug the sensor lead?

"Thanks Again" for the excellent help, Bigwind!

DanO

04:18PM | 02/09/07
Member Since: 11/11/02
2271 lifetime posts
Once the sensor mounting screws are removed, the sensor should be able to be pulled into the oven cavity to expose its wiring harness. Many will have a plug in the harness which can then be used to test its resistance.

Dan O.

www.Appliance411.com/parts/?ref411=Kenmore+Range

The Appliance Information Site

=D~~~~~~

bigwind

05:02PM | 02/09/07
Member Since: 02/08/07
11 lifetime posts
I had 1050 ohm's! I assume that's close enough and this then is NOT my problem!

After reading a bit more here's my plan...please critique:

1) Test my sensor leads from the block terminal to ground.

2) Check connector terminals for corrosion, deformation & cold solder.

Is there anything else I should check before throwing in the towel and buying a new control unit?

A final Thanks for your help, Dan! 411 is an excellent site with VERY competitive rates...Bigwind!

DanO

09:41PM | 02/09/07
Member Since: 11/11/02
2271 lifetime posts
** [the sensor] had 1050 ohm's **

Sounds about right.

** Test my sensor leads from the block terminal to ground. **

I don't know what you mean by that. Usually testing the sensor circuit *where it attaches to the electronic control* will usually rule out a problem in the sensor or its wiring harness at the same time.

** Is there anything else I should check **

Not that I can think of.

BTW. Did you ever look up the proper model number for your range?

Dan O.

www.Appliance411.com/parts/?ref411=Kenmore+Range

The Appliance Information Site

=D~~~~~~

richapplyguy

01:26AM | 02/10/07
Member Since: 01/21/07
23 lifetime posts
Did you test the sensor with it unplugged?

Also with your symptoms you still may have a bad sensor that acts up when the oven gets hot.

I would just replace the sensor and see if that fixes it: cheaper than a new control and

it can be returned if not the problem.

Please post results.

bigwind

01:53AM | 02/10/07
Member Since: 02/08/07
11 lifetime posts
Excellent advice. I honestly had not considered it because I thought all electronic parts are not returnable!

Dan O has best price but given your suggestion and time I'll pick one up at sears today, install it and post back tonight.

I'm a Small Engine Tech and we can NOT return anything electrical...if you hadn't said it, I would have never asked about the return policy.

"Thanks" richapplvguy..or is it Rich and Happy Guy...Hope so, Ha! I appreciate your time!

DanO

10:06AM | 02/10/07
Member Since: 11/11/02
2271 lifetime posts
** I would just replace the sensor and see if that fixes it... it can be returned if not the problem. **

That is not usually the case (see the following link) but will depend on the company the part is purchased from.

- Repair Parts: Don't be surprised!

LINK > http://www.appliance411.com/parts/surprise.shtml

It is also not a good way to go about performing service... but in some cases you just don't have any choice with these electronically controlled appliances. :(

JMO

Dan O.

www.Appliance411.com/parts/?ref411=Kenmore+Range

The Appliance Information Site

=D~~~~~~

bigwind

03:13PM | 02/10/07
Member Since: 02/08/07
11 lifetime posts
I have NOT opened the G.E. package with my new sensor in it...YET!

Has an old man screwed up on his meter reading? The Sensor, disconnected from the harness, reads 1.095 @ 2K, 1.09 @ 20K, and 1.0 @ 200K. Do I have 1095 Ohms or is this reading so low that any reasonably well educated human should know the Sensor is BAD?

I then followed the leads from the Sensor up to where it connects to the control unit. With the SEnsor still DISCONNECTED I checked ohm's between the pin and ground. At 20K one pin reads 1, which is open and the other pin reads 5.94 @ 20K. Does this mean anything to you guys.

Thanks again and sorry for such a long thread.

bigwind

03:50PM | 02/10/07
Member Since: 02/08/07
11 lifetime posts
I have just checked across the two sensor pins on the Control Unit and at 20K setting I am reading 17.75.

Any relevance?

DanO

05:30PM | 02/10/07
Member Since: 11/11/02
2271 lifetime posts
** Do I have 1095 Ohms or is this reading so low **

That should be well within tolerances as its exact resistance will very with the temperature it happens to be at at the time. If defective I would expect it to be +/- a hundred ohms or more out or fluctuate erratically.

** With the SEnsor still DISCONNECTED I checked ohm's between the pin and ground. **

I don't know what "pins" you're referring to, maybe on the control??

The point of that particular exercise is checking the *wiring harness* with the sensor attached to see if it reads the correct resistance at the point where it connects to the control. If it did measure properly at that point, it should eliminate both the sensor and its wiring harness as possible culprits for the error message, at the same time.

I do not believe checking the terminals *of the control* would reveal any useful information. At least I have no idea what readings you should expect.

JMO

Dan O.
www.Appliance411.com/parts/?ref411=Kenmore+Range
The Appliance Information Site
=D~~~~~~

bigwind

02:11AM | 02/11/07
Member Since: 02/08/07
11 lifetime posts
Well, it looks like the Sensor and it's leads are working fine!

I guess it's time to install a Controller?

Would this be the next thing to do or is there anything else I should test first?

DanO

11:13AM | 02/11/07
Member Since: 11/11/02
2271 lifetime posts
** Would this be the next thing to do or is there anything else I should test first? **

If the sensor and its harness are working properly, I can't think of anything else besides the electronic control itself that could be responsible for an F3 fault code.

JMO

Dan O.

www.Appliance411.com/parts/?ref411=Kenmore+Range

The Appliance Information Site

=D~~~~~~

richapplyguy

02:19PM | 02/13/07
Member Since: 01/21/07
23 lifetime posts
Even if the thermister test's ok it still may be bad. I normally just replace them, cheaper than a new ERC. If not the problem then I order the ERC.

bigwind

04:14PM | 02/15/07
Member Since: 02/08/07
11 lifetime posts
Well I have the controller and of course it isn't going to be easy to install! My controller is outdated and they have changed things a bit!

I can just about figure it out and indeed may have everything connected in the right place but there is NO way to know for sure? The instructions are terrible! It is a one pager with two pictures. The pictures are so bad you can't tell a thing about it. Somebody at GE is playing a really bad trick! While searching the net I ran across a forum that dealt with this same issue back in December. They ALL said this was a terrible mess!

Is there a picture or website anywhere that will show me the correct connections?

If not, and you fellows are kind enough to hang with me, I can start asking questions here if either of you know how this thing is supposed to be connected. Sounds like you both may know how to tell me.

There are about 4 questions that will get me there, in fact I can draw the thing if necessary and post the drawing with my questions?

Please tell me there's a picture or better written directions somewhere...HELP??? Thanks again for any and all help!

DanO

10:26PM | 02/15/07
Member Since: 11/11/02
2271 lifetime posts
** Is there a picture or website anywhere that will show me the correct connections? **

Not that I've ever come across.

** if either of you know how this thing is supposed to be connected. **

Without *seeing* what you were supplied and what was there originally, along with referring to the appliance's wiring diagram, I don't know that I could figure it out myself.

You can ask your questions but if it's anything specific, I really doubt I'll be able to answer them. GE has literally hundreds of different electronic controls and we don't even know which exact Kenmore range model you have. You haven't yet posted its model number.

JMO

Dan O.

www.Appliance411.com/parts/?ref411=Kenmore+Range

The Appliance Information Site

=D~~~~~~

bigwind

01:01AM | 02/16/07
Member Since: 02/08/07
11 lifetime posts
Sorry about that. It is a Kenmore 911.45569690 but all the models listed in my initial post use the same controller but no way you would have known that.

I was hoping this was a problem you or other forum members might have run into in the past.

Let me give you all the information in hopes you or Rich might remember dealing with this one?

The parts list that came with the stove shows the Oven/Clock Controller P/N as: WB27T10418 and found on PartsSelect.com that it is no longer available but a replacement is. When the package arrived all the straps were GE parts and the delivered Controller is a Sanyo/Torisan ERC3B (WB27T10174). The one page of instructions were vague but would have been OK but I can't see the pictures of the new strapping configuration.

That document has a heading that reads:

Retrofit of Sanyo/Torisan ERC (WB27T10174 Control in place of Invensys/Robertshaw/Siebe (WB27K5306)

Some of the control buttons have been moved to new positions but every button and face have all the identical function names. There is no associated schematic with this unit.

I have found excellent color pictures of this control unit online if that would help you help me? Otherwise, I'm not sure what to do?

PartsSelect.Com has said they have contacted the provider and they will e-mail me a readable copy of the instructions within 3 days from yesterday (Thursday). IT WOULD BE A MIRACLE IF I EVER RECEIVE THIS INFORMATION? I guess there is always hope?

PartsSelect did say they WILL take the part back without question if I do not receive the instructions. I HAVE NOT CONNECTED THE CONTROL UNIT TO MY STOVE!

I, again, was hoping this was a fairly typical problem and someone might have dealt with it before. Like I said I may have the new straps on correctly but I have no way to know for sure?

DanO

08:14AM | 02/16/07
Member Since: 11/11/02
2271 lifetime posts
** It is a Kenmore 911.45569690 but all the models listed in my initial post use the same controller but no way you would have known that. **

If I wanted to go through each of the possible parts lists and compare them, I guess I could have figured that out. That is really a waste of my time and effort when the accurate information is right on the appliance's ID label.

** I was hoping this was a problem you or other forum members might have run into in the past. **

Appliance servicemen come across parts substitution wiring differences fairly regularly, some better documented than others. Unfortunately, they're not all the same (probably understandable considering just GE has hundreds of different controls in use) and it is fairly unlikely I'd be able to remember any one in particular *in detail*, anyway.

** the [original] Oven/Clock Controller P/N as: WB27T10418 **

I am not familiar with the wiring of that control.

** the delivered Controller is a Sanyo/Torisan ERC3B (WB27T10174) **

I am not familiar with that specific control either.

** I can't see the pictures of the new strapping configuration. **

You mean wiring? I'm afraid I would need to see the instructions and/or both controls' markings and possibly the unit's wiring diagram to try to figure out how it gets wired.

Sometimes controls have the terminals marked (eg. BK for bake, BR for broil, etc.) to help indicate their functions. Which wire was which would have to be determined from the appliance's wiring diagram or by tracing them to see where they go.

** I have found excellent color pictures of this control unit online if that would help you? **

Unless the actual *terminal markings* are clearly identifiable, I'm afraid it would not help at all. I'd still likely need to see the same from the control that's in there now and possibly the appliance's wiring diagram too.

Sorry I couldn't help. Hopefully they can get a better copy of the installation instructions for you from GE.

Dan O.

www.Appliance411.com/parts/?ref411=Kenmore+Range

The Appliance Information Site

=D~~~~~~

bigwind

06:06PM | 02/17/07
Member Since: 02/08/07
11 lifetime posts
First I'd like to "Thank You" Dan for taking the time to walk me through this process.

My stove is working normally and I've saved about $500 by doing the work myself.

I just thought someone on this forum might have had this problem before and could easily explain it but that not being the case Dan, your last posted advice was best.

I pulled the schematic of the stove out and started tracing circuits! Since there were no instructions or schematic with the new controller I had to disassemble the new controller and track the circuit board.

I intend to make one more post here within the next few days directing anyone who has the same problem to an address where I can post pictures and written directions to resolve this problem should they face it.

Dan, should I post the pictures here or is it preferred that I post them elsewhere?

Briefly, these few instructions should resolve the problem for anyone with minimal understanding of basic circuitry even without the pictures:

Take the instructions and the GE 6 pin wiring harness that is provided with the purchase of the Oven/Clock controller and throw them directly into the nearest garbage can!

Unplug the 6 pin plug from the old controller. Move the white pin from it's END position into the OPEN pin position next to it. (Break off the plastic retainer covering the pins, use a very small screwdriver to release the pin. And simply plug it back into the proper hole. It will just snap into place. This is very easy so don't force it).

Reverse the positions of the Blue and Orange pins on this same 6 pin plug. Plug it into the new controller. (This reverses the polarity on the door lock motor. If you don't do this you can't open the door to your oven until it reaches 250 degrees inside. Ha! but true!)

The Purple wire from the old controller connects to the top of the relay nearest the transformer. It had a purple dot on my new unit making it obvious. The lone Yellow wire from the old controller attaches to the top of the only other relay. Mine had a yellow dot. There are 3 connectors on these two relays. These two wires connect to the two connectors that are parallel to each other.

That third male plug on top of the relay closest the transformer and perpendicular to those last two connectors is your main power IN ! Plug the other multi-lead wiring harness that was provided with the controller into it. Doesn't matter which one. Just pick one that fits. This harness has one connector that can ONLY connect to the controller. The other black connectors go onto either of the two remaining connectors on this harness. Remember if it don't fit don't force it!

Your almost finished! Take the only remaining white lead and connect it to the last remaining open contact on the new controller. This is neutral and attaches to the contact next to the 6 pin connector.

Finally you'll be left with two green wires terminating into a female plug. This attaches to NOTHING. It is unnecessary for the controller to work but cannot be removed. You should simply tape the plug over so it can't make contact with anything it shouldn't. Green is ground but should be treated respectfully.

If you cut and or spliced any wire you will be WRONG. Just don't do it even though the only part of the instructions that comes with the controller says to cut and splice the sensor wires. DON'T DO IT!

BINGO...you should be good to go!

I strongly recommend taking the advice provided by Rich in an earlier post. Just buy a new sensor and replace the old one. That would have solved my problem. (Tested my old sensor and it opened completely at 200 degrees) HOWEVER, By replacing the sensor and ECU I now have an essentially new appliance. Total cost was $184.00.(Search the net, Sears charges this for just the Sensor alone?)

Thank You again Dan, for taking your time for free to help us out! It may not seem like it sometimes, I'm sure, but a lot of people have benefited and appreciate your sacrifice to help! Ron Johnson...

DanO

10:28PM | 02/17/07
Member Since: 11/11/02
2271 lifetime posts
Thanks for the follow up. Glad to hear it got it going.

** should I post the pictures here or is it preferred that I post them elsewhere? **

I believe this forum has an upload feature. If the pictures aren't too big, you could upload them here although I don't know how many can be uploaded.

Alternately, you could post them along with the instructions elsewhere and just link to that page from a forum message.

JMO

Dan O.

www.Appliance411.com/parts/?ref411=Kenmore+Range

The Appliance Information Site

=D~~~~~~
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