Latest Discussions : Plumbing

waterguy

03:35PM | 03/07/05
Member Since: 03/06/05
10 lifetime posts
Sometimes pipe makers, especially pvc makers have bad batches of pipe, something goes wrong in the process of making the pipe. It's not that common with copper pipe today, there used to be a thin wall copper pipe that did this quite a bit.I would ask my plumber where the pipe came from and if there were problem from other houses he did at that time. I don't believe he's at fault but he should replace just to keep a good name.I would also see what the ph is of your water. A very high or low ph can be very corrosive and could cause this. You could us a simple pool test kit to find this out. If it's below 6 or above 8.5 i would find a treatment solution. if your connected to a water utlity and its out of that range i would contact them or a state health dept. because they should be treating it already!

Crazytime3

12:27PM | 03/08/05
Member Since: 03/05/05
7 lifetime posts
The pH is 7.5

The plumber states he has not had this problem ever and does not have a clue what to do. We have another bldg with plumbing on the same water longer than the home with no problem. Can soft water be a cause?

waterguy

04:04PM | 03/08/05
Member Since: 03/06/05
10 lifetime posts
Yes extremely soft water is very "aggressive" and will corrode the metal ion's in your plumbing. Extremely soft water is 0-45 ppm of calcium carbonate. Do you soften your water?

Crazytime3

02:01AM | 03/09/05
Member Since: 03/05/05
7 lifetime posts
Yes we have had a softner on the system from day one after the home was compleated. If soft water is such a problem should that not be told to people before the buy a softner? I thought a soft water would not hurt anything as it does for hard water build up.... I will have the soft water tech make a trip out and test the water and ask a few questions. How can I be sure it is soft water that is causing the problem and not a bad batch of copper?

waterguy

02:48AM | 03/09/05
Member Since: 03/06/05
10 lifetime posts
I can't say that its definitly one or the other I'm just going on what you've told me. Has it leaked anywhere on the lines before reaching the softner? I suspect you have an ion exchange system the treats the water to 0 ppm of calcium carbonate. I would ask your soft water tech about blending water. This is where you let some water bypass the softner and then mix so it not so extremely soft. I would say the reason people aren't told about soft water being corrosive is because it may scare people away from buying or they just don't know.

Crazytime3

03:15AM | 03/09/05
Member Since: 03/05/05
7 lifetime posts
I emailed the maker of the softner and expect them to say soft water does not harm copper pipes. I do have another area with water from the same well and No softner with copper pipes. I have had no leaks or problems execpt the coffee maker once in a while. This is a very expensive water softner and will expect something from the tech. They have a very well known name and this is very disappointing with great concern.

waterguy

08:17AM | 03/09/05
Member Since: 03/06/05
10 lifetime posts
Have you noticed any blue/green stains in the sinks,tubs or toilets? If so this is from the corrosion of your copper plumbing.

Crazytime3

09:03AM | 03/09/05
Member Since: 03/05/05
7 lifetime posts
No there are not any areas showing a blue green stain or any stains. The toilet bowl and water container are clear and stain free. The piece of copper pipe I have that had the leak does show blue green on the inside. I would think that is normal for copper being exposed to water. To do a real compairison would be to look in the other copper pipe that does not have a water softner and see what it looks like. To cut those pipes open, that is not an option at this time to prove a point. The softner tech is to be out in the morning.

Crazytime3

10:10AM | 03/10/05
Member Since: 03/05/05
7 lifetime posts
My plumber wanted me to check of electricy on the waterhose bib. I used jumper cable and connected it to a grounded line ie gas copper line and checked it to the hose bib for continuity. The copper water line is grounded. DOES THAT MATTER I would think the hot water heater is grounded.

waterguy

01:09PM | 03/10/05
Member Since: 03/06/05
10 lifetime posts
I know what he's getting at.Your copper lines should be grounded if not you could create an electrochemical reaction with would coorde your copper lines.I think now they usually ground copper lines to the circuit box ground bar.

Gary Slusser

05:20PM | 03/10/05
Member Since: 02/17/04
112 lifetime posts
Water is either hard or soft. The hardness can be measured and if there is any, the water is hard. Softness can not be measured, and removing hardness does not change the water's aggressiveness or corossiveness because if any change in the TDS, it will be higher after ion exchange softening.

Anyone stating that ion exchange softening or a water softener causes damage to copper tubing should be asked for the chemistry behind the claim. Does anyone here know what it is?

There are many causes of pinholes in copper tubing. Such as, improper reaming of tubing ends. Excessive water velocity and soldering flux. High DO (dissolved oxygen), CO2, chlorides etc. and bacteria, electric grounds such as TV, phone etc. and use of the service line as the building's ground electrode. Also low pH naturally soft water with a low TDS and alkalinity. While I'm probably forgetting a few other causes.

The US EPA and the vast majority of states state that the acceptable range for pH is 6.5-8.5. Although 6.5 pH is fairly acidic.

Gary

Quality Water Associates

Crazytime3

02:11AM | 03/11/05
Member Since: 03/05/05
7 lifetime posts
The test results from the water being retested were good, pH was 7.4 - 7.5 through the house and at the well. Hardness was 22gpg was 17 in 2002. total iron was .2 ppm

I discussed the issue about oxygenated water as every well has that or other gasses ie Cd. Was told there is not much you can do about that. If there was a problem with oxygenated water I would have had problems with the other living quaters attached to the same well that has been here longer than the home.

I was told to check for any copper touching concrete, which I was here and have to belive there is none. All the copper lines were sleeved in plastic. UNLESS SOMEWHERE THE REBAR STAKES THEY USED TO HOLD THE PLUMBING IN PLACE IS TOUCHING THE COPPER LINE. Also check for dissimilar metals like the galvanized piece from the hot water heater to the copper pipe to the home. (this does show signs of corrosion but the plumber does not belive that is the problem.

Third thing is a defect in the copper and the only way is to have the copper pipe tested --- I am still looking for a place to do that.

I am still looking for the cause.

waterguy

03:04AM | 03/11/05
Member Since: 03/06/05
10 lifetime posts
Gary not trying to step on any toes or get into an arguement. I'm neither for or against water softners. I don't sell them so i tend to have a neutral veiw. I do believe many people buy them when they don't need them,but for the people who do need them they are a great treatment device. i only gave options of what may be the cause the problems, bases on info given. I'm sue if a copper pipe rep. was here he'd say copper pipe is never manufacture with bad runs.

I deal with millions gallons a day of treated water you may deal with a few gallons a day so I tend to take water tretment very seriously. Two men thru the epa & wqa did do a test a few years ago and said that they showwed no signs of water treated through a softner to be more corrosive, but that naturally soft water was still very corrosive. That was done when a very big name in the softner buisness was sued in a claass action lawsuit for the same problems, copper pipes splitting from corrosion. That very big name company settled for millions of dollars after those test. Evidently those results were not conlusive evidence.

The AWWA still in all their education books state that no water should ever be treated to 0 hardness for it corrosiveness and because its so expensive!

You have your opinion I have mine and we'll just have to agree to disagree. Everything else you stated was already stated right just wanted to clarify the position on softners.

Gary Slusser

10:04AM | 03/19/05
Member Since: 02/17/04
112 lifetime posts
Anyone can say and publish anything, so where is the chemistry to prove the claim the AWWA makes?

Are they misapplying the LSI? It was invented to determine only IF asbestos fiber reinforced cement distribution pipe would lose wall thickness, and in doing so release asbestos fibers into the water.

Gary

Quality Water Associates

BV000588

04:54PM | 03/15/13
What do you all think about relining copper pipes? I have had some yucky discolored water from the copper corrosion. Smeone suggested relining as opposed to redoing all my pipes which is really expensive and requires me to tear down walls. My friend suggested the benefits outweigh repiping. http://www.aceduraflo.com/epipe/benefits Any thoughts on this before I call a contractor to figure it out? It seems like it would be cheaper but not sure of the long term benefits.


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