Latest Discussions : Roofing & Siding

dodgeroof

01:23PM | 05/31/05
Member Since: 03/27/05
95 lifetime posts
This is not at all unusual....having the SAME leak on a new roof.

Have run accross it hundreds of times over the years.

Most "roofers" are not really ROOFERS, but shinglers.

If you can post a couple pictures, both inside and out, and describe what area the pictures show, I might be able to tell you where to suspect the leaking at.

i know YAHOO lets you post pictures to your own page, for free, once regiserting...for free.

A roof CAN be your friend

mcocooper

04:51PM | 05/31/05
Member Since: 05/30/05
12 lifetime posts
ok, thanks for your response and for the Yahoo tip--hopefully i posted them right and you can see them:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/catherineallison/album?.dir=/b92f&.src=ph&.tok=phIm6EDBVQnoFCLY

Picture descriptions:

Inside garage: that's the "leaking" wall.

Inside garage2: is a closer up version...shows it also affects the ceiling

Inside garage3: this is another image but further out--it's almost impossible to see exactly how bad it is because of this AC vent thing in the way

Outside: exterior shot

Outside2: Zoomed in version with some explanations (the red lines are what the roofer did today--"caulk" with tar along the edges

Hope this helps you help me...and i absolutely agree with your comment that most roofers aren't really roofers but shinglers....actually our roofer came this afternoon to take a look and his diagnosis was to just apply tar through a caulk gun on the seam (see red lines in picture)...he didn't even go into the attic and see if it was wet....anyway, look forward to your comments....

dodgeroof

04:06AM | 06/05/05
Member Since: 03/27/05
95 lifetime posts
I'll check these photos again, later today.

But it's safe to say it's a flashing problem.

And, it looks like the valley hits the wall before it turns a corner, a common problem area because most "roofers" simply don't know what they're doing. But, like I said, I'll look at these later today and give you specific ideas/areas to check and possibly redo....or have redone.

A roof CAN be your friend

mcocooper

06:55AM | 06/05/05
Member Since: 05/30/05
12 lifetime posts
thank you--i thought you had forgotten about me! Will look forward to hearing your suggestions....

if you need different pictures, lemme know too and i'll be happy to take them and post

homebild

08:11AM | 06/05/05
Member Since: 01/28/03
693 lifetime posts
I agree with dodgeroof's analysis of the problem. It is likley a flashing problem.

But your repair may invlove more than flashing and could require having to pull off the snythetic stucco above all flashed areas if improper flashing was employed.

mcocooper

10:47AM | 06/05/05
Member Since: 05/30/05
12 lifetime posts
you said "likely" a flashing problem...how would you go about determining what exactly you need... I looked in the Yellow pages and anything even remotely applying to leaks is in reference to plumbing...should i have another roofer come and look? because it seems to me that my roofer's "fix" is just a patch and is treating the symptom and not the cure--i am interested in finding a cure and resolving the problem.

Still looking forward to dodgeroof's comments as to what to check and possible re-do.....

homebild

05:52PM | 06/05/05
Member Since: 01/28/03
693 lifetime posts
Dodgeroof can answer for himself and I am sure he will be helpful. In the interim I'll give some more comments and dodgeroof can add to or correct mine if he'd like.

Ok. Let's assume for a moment it is a flashing problem.

And let's assume the flashing was not put in correctly to begin with. This seems the case because this is an apparntly newer home and has been giving you trouble from the start.

The biggest problem you face is getting proper flashing installed to correct the problem.

The issue here is that flashing needs not only to cover or get interwoven into the shingles properly, but also it needs to get bent up behind the siding properly.

In your case, with synthetic stucco siding, this means that in order to put in proper flashing if you have bad flashing, you must remove all of the synthetic stucco on that part of the house above the flashing and that is not a roofing problem.

It is a specialty siding problem and most roofers (most anyone actually) won't wnat to have to get involved with a sider as well in order to correct the problem.

So immediately you need two trades people: roofers and siders if the flashing is faulty, improperly installed or non-existant. (no that NEVER happens...lol)

So this becomes a bigger job than just a simple roof repair under this scenario.

The second possible scanrio is that it isn't a flashing problem at all. Just a poor design problem.

Your roof system is already suspect what with all the intersecting roof lines. It certainly makes for an interesting appearance but it sure isn;t practical from a building or roofing point of view.

Dodgeroof already mentioned that the one valley appears to terminate improperly, but it isn't possible to veryify from the angles you've shown. If that is the case, however, repair may not be easily achievable and may require redesigning the valley and roof in the worst case scenario.

The thrid scenario is that this isn't a roof problem at all, but a typical synthetic stucco condensation nightmare problem.

You can do your own research by Googling 'synthetic stucco lawsuits' or 'DryVit lawsuits' to find all the home disasters that exist in North America from this type fo siding.

Put simply, synthetic stucco has been the ruin of more homes in North America than any other product in the last quarter century.

What happens is that improperly installed synthetic stucco that is badly sealed itself leaks and/or traps gaseous water that then condenses with no where to go but down...Down into the framing system, drywall, ceilings, insulations...

And houses have been completely destroyed by faulty installation of this product.

If you have condensation or leakage problems from snythetic stucco, you could be in BIG trouble and your insurer may not cover any of your damages.

I'd like to beleive this is simple flashing problem, and until I can see additional evidence hope it is.

But it could be an design flaw in the roof system or worse yet bad synthetic stucco and without a hands on examination of the house, it won't be possible for me or anyone else to tell from here.

"MY" suggestion is to get an architect or emgineer that specializes in roofing problems to come by and properly diagnose the problem.

It could cost you $500-$1000 but would be well worth the investment and peace of mind.

Piffin

06:43PM | 06/05/05
Member Since: 11/06/02
1278 lifetime posts
This is without a doubt a poor roof design to begin with. That is the primary reason for the original leak.

But it is nothing that could not be overcome with careful detailing in the installation. were I the roofer, there are things re the flashing and siding that would bee needing redone as part of the job if I were to be expected to do quality work and gaurantee it.

Unfortunately, there are far too many "roofers" who only care about how fast they can be done and gone and don't calculate for doing a harder one like this right.

I would recommend that you find a quality roofing company with integrity and have this section redone, including an underlay of ice and water shield, new flashings and siding replacement where needed.

Excellence is its own reward!


dodgeroof

03:34AM | 06/06/05
Member Since: 03/27/05
95 lifetime posts
Looked at your photos again....but without seeing the exact area, not just an upward looking view, I can't pinpoint anything. But even if I was THERE, looking at it, It might be the case where I was sure it was leaking due to the flashing work...but not be able to specifically pinpoint it. I would normally just figure what I'd need to charge in order to permnanently fix this leak, including total removal as needed of all adjacent areas, then there's no question it would be fixed. I tell you this NOT because I can travel hundreds of miles to repair something, but that you need to locate a roofer who specializes in fixing leaks. I've found over the years that most roofers do not mess with roof repairs beyond slinging a bit of goop here or there. We've long ago gotten into actually dismantling the problem areas, then re doing them. It's a different mindset than simply banging out one roof after the other.

So I'd recommend you start the tedious process of calling all the roofers you can, and questioning them about repairs....do they do them? HOW do they approach a needed repair? Can they guarantee the repair?

One last thing is that if the proper metal flashings, of sufficient width..length...etc. are not already installed behind the stucco, there is a way a permanent repair could be done using counter flashings installed directly to the face of the stucco. These would take the place of what the stucco is supposed to do, that is run over the flashings. The top edge of the counter flashing has a "trough" which holds caulking as the final seal. Around here, counter flashings installed onto the exterior of brick, wood, and stucco walls are common. They work fine, although the caulking might become a maintenance issue years down the road. The counter flashings are typically painted. They are seen....but don't really look bad at all...in my opinion. But, it's an alternative to having to tear oput a portion of the stucco

in order to install correct/sufficient flashings.

The real key to fixing your leak, after the area is removed, is in a redundant "system".

That is, after removal of roof materials from the gutter area...running up to the corner....around the backside going up to the wall....it would be a good idea to install an "ice$water" membrane prior to any flashings and shingles. Make this water-tight to begin with...then as the areas are put back together,

the use of extra-wide or over-sized flashings add a further protection from water migration....and of course carefull fabrication of the flashing corners {another common problem area}. It's really just about good workmanship.

So, when looking for a good roofer, think "craftsman"...because that's really what you need.

A roof CAN be your friend

mcocooper

05:08AM | 06/06/05
Member Since: 05/30/05
12 lifetime posts
to all for your comments.

finding a good roofer--or one that cares about actually finding a leak and fixing the problem rather than just shlopping on shingles is tantamount to winning the lottery...maybe i should have mentioned that i live in Orlando, FL whereby a freak of nature we got hit by four hurricanes last year and roofers have enough to keep them busy for 2 years and can charge what they want -- we had to wait 4 months to get our roof fixed and we still have this problem.

All that being said, i'm still also trying to digest everything that homebild said (although alot of houses here have the same gazillion angles and don't seem to have a problem).

I guess in a nutshell, gotta keep plugging away to find a quality roofer--and/or an engineer. Any of you have any knowledge of my area and any referrals?

Also, you mentioned you couldn't really tell from my photos--would it help if i took closer ones or ones from on top of the roof? I'm gonna try that and will let you know when they're up

Cathy

>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·...¸>¸.

·´¯`·.. >`·.¸¸.·´¯`·...¸>

dodgeroof

12:49PM | 06/06/05
Member Since: 03/27/05
95 lifetime posts
It's quite possible I could tell you what's wrong...or at least narrow it down to 2 or 3 items if I saw 2 or 3 photos....more or less "overhead" shots and a couple close up shots.

IF you're handy, might even be able to walk through a repair.

So now Florida has the sad experience of a flood of roofers...90% who know next to nothing...and as you mentioned, don't care a wit passed a check/beer/drugs money. Maybe it's just more of an insult at this point after you having gone through those devestating storms. But it's certainly not uncommon....in fact I believe it's almost the rule...crap work that is, by guys who don't know, don't care...or both.

If you take some new pictures, just take them from any angle you think might help...and of all the various flashing points, abutments, valley/wall juncture, etc.

A roof CAN be your friend

mcocooper

08:32AM | 06/08/05
Member Since: 05/30/05
12 lifetime posts
Sorry it has taken me so long to upload new photos but it has been raining non-stop here for the past week+ and it just now gave me a chance to crawl up there....

Hope these shots give you a better view....

thanks again for your help--look forward to your response...

Here's the link

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/catherineallison/album?.dir=/b92f

mcocooper

08:33AM | 06/08/05
Member Since: 05/30/05
12 lifetime posts
oh, and i figured you could figure out what angle they were taken from in reference to the original pics so i just labeled them A-F for reference purposes.

ok--ciao

doug seibert

11:11AM | 06/08/05
Member Since: 08/10/02
842 lifetime posts
I'm not a roofer....but I am in Orlando.......

There's no flashing protecting those shingles at the wall.....

Just blobs of Roofing cement on the exposed nails....

the stucco on the upper wall near the gutter looks damaged .........

tomh

02:41PM | 06/08/05
Member Since: 07/01/03
549 lifetime posts
I see the same problems Doug notes, especially the lack of continuous flashing along the wall which should come over the top of the first set of shingles, and no evidence of step flashing along the slopes. Also, the closed valley is not woven, it is cut off on the left side. This may be OK, depending on whether the valley is flashed or shingles run up under the left side, this is a great spot for leaks, and it terminates at an outside corner with no kick-out flashing. The vent stack was not fitted with a new collar or flashing.

This link provides a quick guide to some types of flashing that apply: http://www.remodelguide.com/hyhw/shell/126flash.html

This shows what a woven valley should look like in a roof and how it is built: http://www.stargroup.com/ResidentialInspections.htm?hnt/rt020.html~mainFrame

http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00135_02.asp


dodgeroof

03:06PM | 06/09/05
Member Since: 03/27/05
95 lifetime posts
The lead pipe jack is not flashed in correctly with the shingles. Since the boob who "roofed" this made such a simple error as that, and judging by the photos, it's safe to say you need an expert in roof repairs. All that stuff could be permanently fixed by someone who knows what they're doing. Although the photos don't show flashings at the wall, it's possible there are some, maybe installed before the stucco was installed???

This type of repair might cost someone $600-800 or so around here, by someone I'm extremely close to...wink, wink.. just depending on how much ultimately needs to be removed then redone. But where you're at, things sound a bit haywire.

Although all the roof/wall abutments look suspect, I suspect the bottom of the valley even more. It looks like it ends at the wall, a bad thing to begin with, and any flashing work at the corners of things, like skylights, walls, etc. are common sources of leaks because the flashing is sloppily done. But the fact the valley ends there...somewhere, compounds the situation.

You might try doing a temporay fix on it if it's going to be a while before a real roofer can make corrections. I'm just thinking of plastic roof cement. But due to the fact the valley abuts the wall, or least the corner, is going to make it difficult to "goop" it into submission. Might be worth a shot though, rather than watch your drywall fall apart.

A roof CAN be your friend

Lauraleas

11:00AM | 07/11/05
Member Since: 07/09/05
2 lifetime posts
I had started a new thread on July 10 -- New roof or repair leaking roof--

After reading the new replies on "Leaking roof" I realize my problem is somewhat related. I live in California and do not have any ice or snow so the information about ice shields doesn't seem to apply.

The latest advice a roofer gave was to put a sealant over all the tiles and this would take care of the leaking problem.

I'm not at this point why they don't recommend a new roof but after reading the horror story of"leaking roof" I realize even a new roof may be an iffy solution.

Also, even though the discontinued tiles have a "50 year warranty" with the roof approaching 20 years old I wonder if it makes sense to keep repairing, although the three roofers who have come have all recommended to keep repairing by lifting tiles (we are running out of my stack of extra tiles and some tiles break when lifting them to replace the felt).

Although "Leaking roof" has a new roof which leaks -- it scares me to read that I could get a new roof and still have the problem.


mcocooper

04:45AM | 07/12/05
Member Since: 05/30/05
12 lifetime posts
I couldn't find your thread but just wanted to let you know that I have been extremely pleased about the quality of service through this website--the comments and moderators are great so you're at the right place and I am sure you will find someone to help with your problem. It's the quality of workmanship that's the problem, so if you're REAL lucky, maybe even some of these guys are in your area and can help you directly. I will try and give you another reference if i can find it--maybe send me a link to your thread--it is from a gentleman in PA that specializes in hard to find leaks and he was very helpful as well....

The verdict is still out on my roof--I applied some more caulking/roof cement in strategic places as suggested but since it just happens occasionally and mother nature hasn't seemed to cooperate as of late, am not sure if it's ok. But, no leaks so far, so i'm happy.


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