Latest Discussions : Electrical & Lighting

Wireman

06:52PM | 01/26/05
Member Since: 12/19/04
62 lifetime posts
Ron,

Disregard what you are reading on that fixture box. It does not mean that the wiring in the ceiling box has to be 90 degree rated. It is ul rated to be connected to house wiring. That was a question every electrician was asking when that label first appeared. I have forgotten the technical meaning of the label but you sure aren't required to change the wiring in the box. I am impressed that you as a consumer actually looked at the box, read that and questioned it. thats cool. But just install it and don't worry about it.

Ron

Wireman

06:55PM | 01/26/05
Member Since: 12/19/04
62 lifetime posts
Ron, forgot to mention. I believe that in 1984 sheathed electrical cable cable already had the 90 degree rating so that might even make you feel better about hanging those fixtures.

Ron

stupidgringo

05:21AM | 01/27/05
Member Since: 01/08/05
7 lifetime posts
OK, so I've done some poking around on the internet and in my attic, and I've got new questions.

First, in my attic, the sheathed electrical cable is marked NM (60 degree) not NM-B (90 degree), so while 90 degree may have been available in 1984, it wasn't used in my house...

My understanding is that the fire risk is from light bulb heat igniting the wire jacket. Is this the case?

If this is the risk, is the risk lowered by using 14 watt compact fluorescent bulbs instead of 60 watt incandescent bulbs? Is this only an issue with flush mounted fixtures? The chandelier I just installed has no such warning.

With regard to your comment about reading and heeding the warning, I have to wonder how many 20 year old homes there are with new and potentially incompatible light fixtures.

Thanks for your help.

Ron


Tom O

01:41PM | 01/27/05
Member Since: 09/17/02
476 lifetime posts
Ron,

That label means exactly what it says. If you have the old NM cable, you are not supposed to connect this fixture to it. Doing so would result in at least 2 code violations, one administrative and one that could be a potential hazard.

As you have determined, a pendant or chandelier does not pose the same problem as one that is surface mounted.

Yes, a 14 watt CF lamp will make less heat than a 60 watt lamp, but who is to say that someone won't eventually screw in some 60 watt lamps.

The following is from the Underwriters Laboratories "Marking Guide for Luminaires"

"37. SUPPLY WIRE TEMPERATURE — luminaires that require greater than 60 °C supply wire are marked “MIN ___ °C SUPPLY CONDUCTORS” for which blank space is replaced with the temperature. Luminaires intended to be installed in a dwelling, connected to or over an outlet box, and marked for supply wire rated 75°C or 90°C are additionally marked “CAUTION - RISK OF FIRE. CONSULT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN TO ENSURE CORRECT BRANCH CIRCUIT CONDUCTOR.”

This should make it clear that the supply wires must be rated for the temperature that the label on the fixture requires.

Tom

joed

02:55PM | 01/27/05
Member Since: 09/17/02
524 lifetime posts
Since you can poke around in the attic and find the wire type, I think this will be easy to fix if there is only one cable in the box or both cable come fromthe same direction.

You can disconnect the current wire and pull it out of the box from the attic. Install it into a new box mounted about a foot away from the old box. Now connect a piece of new NM-B from the new box to the old fixture box. Install a cover on the new box and you are good to go.

Wireman

11:40AM | 01/29/05
Member Since: 12/19/04
62 lifetime posts
Ron,

If you could hold off on that total rewiring project for awhile I will get back to you regarding connecting that fixture to the existing sheathed electrical cable. This was a discussion we had a long time ago regarding those labels when we all thought we had to change that existing wiring and the state inspectors gave us the real meaning for it. I will take the time to get the proper interpretation for you.

Ron

dbellagio

09:31PM | 01/30/05
Member Since: 01/30/05
4 lifetime posts
I never knew this existed until I got a new fixture to replace an old one. My house is 1980. I've added on, so all that new wire and fixtures are OK (I guess). But this spot I am working on now is on an old section. I just installed the fixture, even though it said 90C required. Is my house going to burn down? That light is not on that much (in the washer/dryer room). Plus, the wires are up in the box, and the fixture has a plate and space between the plate/shield and the box. So, I don't see it getting that hot up there. But I wish these manufacturers would not waste my time. That really ****es me off. I don't have time to go to the store, come home, unpack, then read this warning. That is the screwed up part.

Sorry, I'm ****ed. Wireman, looking forward to your info if you post it.

Super

Wireman

04:12AM | 02/01/05
Member Since: 12/19/04
62 lifetime posts
In my state they have concluded that the amount of repairs needed to accommodate the installation of 90 degree wiring for these fixtures is quite involved and they do not enforce replacing the existing wiring. Their thought is that the new fixture is an improvement over the old type fixture and for safety sake they feel it is acceptable. I have always installed them with no problem. Call your local inspector and they may give you the same answer. Hope this helped you.

Ron

bink

04:52AM | 02/01/05
Member Since: 01/18/99
47 lifetime posts
I agree with 'wireman'. Replaced some fixture that said 90 degree to my old boxes. I haven't had any problems. It has been over five years.

Let us know how it works out.

dbellagio

07:36AM | 02/01/05
Member Since: 01/30/05
4 lifetime posts
So, when I pulled off the old fixture, it was set up for 3 60 Watt bulbs. It had a heavy metal shield and was mostly ugly metal. The wires leading to the supply wires were old and brittle from heat I guess. So, normally, I would not have found this as I would have just replaced the bulbs and went on. Would that have been more safe? But, since I could not figure out how to get the fisture to expose the bulbs, I tore it down, and decided to replace (it was ugly too). So, the wife brought home the new pretty fixture and then I saw the wraning sticker during installation. Went up in the attic and noticed the NM rating on that wire. So, I guess I could leave the light on all day and stick a thermometer up there. Or just live with it. I replaced it with a 30 Watt flourescent tube that supposedly puts out 125 watts of light. It is much brighter in there. But, now I am worried about fire risk, all because of that warning sticker. So, I am tempted to just rip the thing down and take it back to the store and get a regular fixture where I can see the light bulbs. Even though the old wires look fine and I believe the new fixture is better built to dissapate the heat. Maybe I could call the local inspector and see what they say. All of this because someone created a product that only will work in 1/2 of the homes in the world? Or is it less than half?

Super

dbellagio

08:12AM | 02/02/05
Member Since: 01/30/05
4 lifetime posts
Replying to my own post (I like talking to myself). I called the local electrician. He said they would look at the wiring and would install if appropriate. However, if any question about safety, I could easily just put another box in, and run 90C wire to the new fixture. So, no real help there. He also said all fixtures have that label, even the ones for bedrooms which have open bulbs (is this true)? So, if every new fixture has this warning, then what am I to do? And shouldn't the old fixtures have problems too (even though that was code at the time)? So, again, lawyers get involved and make life difficult. I thought the reason for the wire box was to prevent a fire in the first place? More questions, no answers. Maybe I will take the time to put a new box in my attic. That sounds like a fun task. Or, look at the other fixtures the next time I am in the store.

Super

Tom O

02:09PM | 02/02/05
Member Since: 09/17/02
476 lifetime posts
As far as the box is concerned, it is not there to prevent fires and it is not there to contain fires. It serves 2 main purposes, one is to provide a mounting means for the fixture and the other is to provide protection from accidental contact with the enclosed conductors.

I don't believe that the requirement for 90 degree insulation came from lawyers, it came from field experiance. I remember when you could purchase a light fixture & there wasn't even a mention of the maximum wattage lamp that was allowed. I've taken down plenty of old fixtures and found brittle insulation on the conductors in the ceiling box.

Heat damage can take many years to happen, so the poster that said he has had no problems so far, is only one installation for a fairly short time frame. Using that logic, I know of plenty of houses that don't have GFCI's installed, no one's been electrocuted in those houses, so why bother with GFCI's.

From the Underwriters Laboratories General Information For Electrical Equipment, The products in this directory are intended to be installed in accordance with the installation instructionsprovided with the product. It is critical that the cautionary statements and installation and operating instructions on the product and in accompanying literature be followed." Sounds like a warning to me.

Anyhow, since you have access to your attic, pulling the wires back out of the box, installing a junction box & extending new wire into the old fixture box is not that hard of a project.

dbellagio

10:00AM | 02/05/05
Member Since: 01/30/05
4 lifetime posts
Tom O. I agree with you. But, I've not yet had time to either replace the fixture or go up in the attic and muck around with the wiring. They should just make fixtures that don't have this problem.

Super

Wireman

10:36AM | 02/05/05
Member Since: 12/19/04
62 lifetime posts
Tom,

I sort of guess by your responses that you might be an electrician so I have a question for you. Anytime you have a customer request that you install a replacement light fixture do you tell them that they will have to tear the ceilings open and replace the wiring? Or only when there is an attic above the existing fixture? Where do you cut the line as to when the customer should spend $500.00 or more to rewire boxes to install a $50.00 fixture because of the label? Super. Quit being such a worry wart. If the new fixtures aren't supposed to be connected to wiring rated less than 90 deg why would you think the existing fixtures could be? I had suggested to you to contact the local inspector but I guess he has to worry about that label too (you know, the liability crisis this country is suffering from. Nobody will do anything for anybody because they are afraid of "liability") For heavens sake, isntall the fixture and don't worry about it. If you spend too much more time getting that fixture installed you won't have a wife. Here, try this, go to city hall with the fixture. Hand it to the electrical inspector (preferably, the lead inspector) show him the label, tell him the type nm cable you have in your home and ask him if you can install that fixture as a replacement. If he says no, ask him if they are requiring folks to tear open ceilings and walls to rewire for these fixtures. Just do it. And please, email me to let me know what they say. "papastarr@yahoo.com".

phmoffett

03:42PM | 02/06/05
Member Since: 02/05/05
5 lifetime posts
My house was built in 1962. One of the original fixtures no longer works and needs replacement. I see the same warning and I'm baffled by it. Am I to believe lighting fixtures manufactured PRIOR TO 1985 did produced LESS HEAT than fixtures manufactured AFTER 1985? I don't see the difference in the manufacture of a 100w bulb manufactured prior now and 1962. So what's the story there?


Tom O

01:53PM | 02/07/05
Member Since: 09/17/02
476 lifetime posts
I have never run into this particular problem with my customers. Since swapping out a fixture does not appear to be a hard job, most of them DIY & probably shrug their shoulders when they try to understand the 90 degree wiring requirement.

I have had customers hand me fixtures that were made outside the U.S., usually China, that did not have a NRTL listing label on them. I tell them that I won't install that fixture and why. If I lose business, so be it.

As far as new fixtures vs old being connected to 60 degree wiring, the probelm was evidently not recognized prior to the labeling that requires 90 degree branch circuit conductors. Are we supposed to go on installing potential fire hazards for ever, or do we adopt a new requirement?

I'm having a hard time understanding why you're ignoring the expert advice & requirements being set forth by UL and others. I think Underwriters Laboratories and other nationally recognized testing laboratories have a lot more experience with this issue.

Evidently, you don't feel that compliance with the NEC is required in this case. Do you just go along with the code when you agree with it? I'll be the first to agree that there are a lot of nit-picking details in the NEC, but where do you draw the line as to what parts you're going to comply with?

Ah, well, I guess we'll just have to disagree over the importance of this particular issue. And yes, I am an electrician and an AHJ.

Tom


bravey

03:25PM | 02/07/05
Member Since: 06/23/04
161 lifetime posts
Changes in building codes work like this: If a building (including electrical work) was constructed in full compliance with a current code, any later changes in the code are NOT retroactively applied. The installation is acceptable and legal even though current codes differ. This is often refered to as "grandfathering". The only time that current codes are applied are when there is a clear and present danger to life safety or when remodeling is so extensive that the cost of upgrading is of a diminished significance. Repairs can be made if such repairs are not extensive (local rules vary) and do not lessen the safety level of the original installation. All of this may seem a bid vague, but prevents buildings from being constantly torn apart every time a regulation is introduced, altered, or upgraded. Generally, a device with higher grade standard may be fitted to existing lower grade systems unless such installation would constitute a danger or increased risk of danger.

Regards

phmoffett

06:46PM | 02/08/05
Member Since: 02/05/05
5 lifetime posts
I'm NOT trying to avoid a safety warning -- just trying to understand the threat level.

Let me see if I can reduce the argument to the basics. SOOOO Here goes --- Nothing has changed as far as the heat generated by a lighting fixture with a 100w bulb flush mounted to a box since my house was built in 1962. The same fixture manufactured today would generate the same heat with the same 100w incandescent bulb as the fixture manufactured in 1962. So -- the ONLY thing that's changed since 1962 is that sheathed electrical cable is now rated at a higher temperature. SO - I must have been living with the same threat of fire due since 1962 as I do today should I replace the fixture using the very same 1962 era sheathed electrical cable.


MistressEll

11:45AM | 02/27/05
Member Since: 01/30/05
360 lifetime posts
You stated the wiring existing was BRITTLE.

This IS the problem, plus those old fixtures originally had a warning that said 60 watt max type A bulbs so using 100 watt bulbs only increased the trouble!

The whole thing is like this:

The 60 degree C and 75 degree C and 90 degree C ratings refer to the temperature (ambient) that the insulation can protect the conductor safely. That old TW and old sheathed electrical cable wire was 60 degrees C (or possibly rated at 75 degrees C for over 100 amp applications).

The HEAT generated by an incandescent bulb is HUGE compared to the light "candles" it produces. Its engergy requirements similarly imbalanced, hence making it a very inefficient lighting source.

The problem is JUST WHAT YOU DESCRIBED THAT YOU FOUND!! Brittle, dried out (that old insulation was rubber based), sometimes burnt, sometimes oxidized insulation and wiring. THIS IS A SOURCE OF an ARC-FAULT and or heat sourced FIRE. YES you are at risk, YES you have a problem, and YES the rest of your home where other such wiring situations exist are at danger. This danger increases over time.

The USEFUL life of your cable was 20-25 years as originally designed, assuming it was NEVER EXPOSED to over-voltages/amps and excessive heat, and other such age-reducing hazards.

The HEAT generated by 3 x 60 watt bulbs in the ceiling fixture, let alone 100 watt bulb(s) PLUS the ambient temperature of a box and cabling in the ATTIC (without added burden of heat generated by the lightbulbs themselves that's already over 51 degrees C) your cabling probably has aged expidentially. Yes you need to inspect your wiring, it is the insulation that is at greatest risk and if brittle, it isn't protecting against arcs between the hot and neutral in your sheathed electrical cable itself!

In general, if the cabling is a-okay, yes it is possible to "pig-tail" to a box the existing 60 degree (ASSUMING ITS GOOD/SAFE) then junction to 90 degree and run the 90 degree to the FIXTURE box, but each and EVERY bit of wiring to that fixture box, coming and going and THROUGH that box must be 90-degree rated to its next point at 3-plus feet away.

Frankly I would't trust 30 year old sheathed electrical cable in an attic for any reason, its already beyond its "useful life", as originally intended. I'd replace the entirety with EMT enclosed THHN of the correct rating for distance, derated for conduit and attic.

MistressEll

11:46AM | 02/27/05
Member Since: 01/30/05
360 lifetime posts
Remember EZ bake ovens, and Suzy Homemaker ovens? They BAKED A CAKE with a 25 watt bulb!

A11Thumbs

10:19PM | 03/17/05
Member Since: 03/17/05
5 lifetime posts
That label on a fixure I bought gave me pause. I was about to go return it to the store but decided to do a websearch on the subject instead. I'm glad I did. It sounds like I'll definitely be good to go if I just put some 14 w compact fluorescents in the fixture.

I don't buy incandescent bulbs anymore as it is.

Do they even make light fixtures for 60C wiring anymore?

MistressEll

12:43PM | 03/19/05
Member Since: 01/30/05
360 lifetime posts
Not if it bears a UL label and/or other label claiming to meet the UL standard, no they don't.

They also don't or shouldn't make cloth covered conductors anymore either, nor knob & tube wiring replacments, who wants the liability?

The problem with not doing a simple little bit of wiring replacement, is that at any time someone might screw in an "edison type" bulb and poof trouble. replacing or adding a pig-tail box isn't that expensive nor difficult in your exposed attic, I truly don't understand your resistance. Also, hope you bothered to "surf" the UL site and NFPA (the org that writes the NEC), also the US gov site for the Consumer Product Safety Commission, and read the statistics on home fires and deaths caused by wiring errors/failing to head warnings and household electrical conductors that have not been replaced besides having been beyond their "useful life". Tom and I were 100% correct.

A11Thumbs

06:46PM | 03/21/05
Member Since: 03/17/05
5 lifetime posts
I'm doing good connecting the white wire to the white wire actually. I have no idea what a pigtail box is.

I do know the wiring in my house is not cloth covered. It's inside a flexible metal conduit and it's a two wire system. Someone added a second breaker box at some point after the house was built.

When I put up the fixtures the wires looked good. Last year my brother who is an electrician showed me how to put up ceiling fans and he said the wiring was in good shape.

I had a choice between leaving up hazardous and busted light fixtures or putting up newer safer ones. The fixtures in the kitchen were in awful shape and I'm not sure how they got that way. The porcelain 'cup' around the light socket was busted off. The previous owners of this house rented it to people who did beastly things to it.

I am not in a position to hire someone to rewire my house, nor do I at this point know how to myself. I bought my house because a house payment was cheaper than rent!

A11Thumbs

08:34PM | 03/22/05
Member Since: 03/17/05
5 lifetime posts
I forgot to mention this: The fixtures have a sticker that says 60 watt bulbs are the maximum that should be used in that fixture. What's to stop some pinhead from slapping a pair of 100 watt bulbs up there?


stupidgringo

01:48PM | 03/23/05
Member Since: 01/08/05
7 lifetime posts
Funny thing. I started this thread when I bought new fixtures and read the tiny "supply conductor" label, which I bet most people miss.

Next to the label that says 60w max bulbs, I wrote, with a sharpie, in very large letters:" WARNING- USE ONLY 14 WATT COMPACT FLUORESCENT BULBS - FIRE HAZARD".

No one will ever change a light bulb in any of those fixtures without reading that label. They have been warned. Even though my warning label is unofficial, I think it will be more effective, since it will always be seen and read.

I love my new light fixtures and feel good about my decision to install them.

A11Thumbs

01:58PM | 03/23/05
Member Since: 03/17/05
5 lifetime posts
I was gonna do the exact same thing!

I'm very pleased with the way my new fixtures look too. My kitchen and pantry are so bright now. The style is such that they look fabulous in my old house up there on my smooth plaster ceilings. They have those thick alabaster glass covers held on with a fancy looking nut and 'washer.'

MistressEll

05:19AM | 03/26/05
Member Since: 01/30/05
360 lifetime posts
Okay, go back and read the entire post string A11. Glass enclosed fixtures will enclose the heat and direct it to the conductors in the BOX that your connections to the fixture are in, that heat will transmit via the electrical conductors (wires) and deteriorate the insulation on them.

A pigtail box: You have accessible attic. you create a box between the wiring now and the fixture that is at least three feet away. take the wiring to the old box and direct it here to the new box, then run newer 90 degree rated wiring from the new box to the old box. Make sure that only newer wiring goes into/out of and through the old box. That's the "pig tail". You don't have to rewire the entire house, just the portion of the wiring that goes to, from and through the box containing the fixture, its pretty simple and easy and cheap. 60 degrees C is rather cool in the world of enclosed areas in a home near ceilings that are being baked by a lightbulb, 90 degrees C is up near 160-180 degrees or more plus F (100 degrees C is 212 degrees F). If this is an attic, it gets pretty HOT up there when the sun shines on it in the summer, PLUS you're adding the HEAT from the lightbulb generating even more.

Its a pretty simple project to repull wire through plastic conduit and the cost of proper THHN (90 degrees F) is pretty cheap.

joed

06:00AM | 03/26/05
Member Since: 09/17/02
524 lifetime posts
The problem comes when the insulation gets cooked from the heat of the new fixture if it isn't already cooked fromthe old fixture. It is usually not a problem until someone removes the fixture. Then the hard insulation cracks and falls off as soon as you bend the wires to remove the fixture.

FixHouse06

02:09PM | 11/04/05
Member Since: 11/03/05
2 lifetime posts
Dear All,

Regarding 90c supply conductor, etc. My house is from 1940's. A converted summer home. And yes, I bought the fixture, got it home, unpacked it - and then was able to read the warning. My house sure doesn't have the right wiring. Anne

local75

06:23AM | 01/15/06
Member Since: 01/09/06
3 lifetime posts
Hi:

My house was built in mid'-late '50, then it's quite old in comparison to today's standard, ... not only 'electrical wiring,' but also 'all other stuff.'

However, my husband and I went to 'upgrade' most of lighting-fixtures all rooms in my house, including 'car-port' and 'outside' lighing-fixtures. Then, we encountered this, ... 90 - 85 degrees 'WARNING,' on their packages. Afterwards, I went to the store where I boughut all of lighting-fixtures(priced around $250.00 in all). The sales person told me that we CAN do that, ... as long as we put the same wattages which is from 65 - 150 watts. He just dismissed 'Warning' signs as saying it's for the sake of 'sue/lawyer' advantage, ... 'Money.'

So, we did it, as believing the sales person's quote. However, for precautious measures, we put 'Energy-Saver'/fluorences-type'/expensive,' all of those 'new' lighting fixutes. We NEVER put 'classis/old-standard light-bulbs, just in case.

The bottom line is, ... if there is such a 'BIG' risk, like 'fire' hazzards or life-threat due to 'wiring,' ... then why the heck many of those 'lighting-fixtures' on the shelves at major home-improving stores??? There are a ton of lighting-fixures at'Home-Depot,' 'Lowe's,' and other 'big to small lighting stores' in my town. Thre is NO warning sign at any of stores, ...'Do NOT purchase 'new' lighting-fixutres *if* houses were built before '85 or before.' Shoud give the warning, ... *ONLY* houses build 'after' 1985. However, I don't see it at any of 'major' stores.

If nobody buying 'new' lighting-fixtures because of 'wiring' stuff, there are MANY, MANY 'returns,' then those 'manufacturing companies' must be stop making lighting-fixutres altogether?

local75

Tom O

11:51AM | 01/15/06
Member Since: 09/17/02
476 lifetime posts
Local75,

The purpose of a salesperson is to sell things and maybe that explains the completely unqualified advice you received. Your salesperson is not the one risking life & property, you are.

Also, it is the installers responsibility, not the store, to decide which materials are appropriate. Besdies, most people ignore the installation instructions and most are just as likely to ignore the sign in the store. I'm continually amazed by how many people ask for expert advice, get it and since it is not what they want to hear, proceed with what they wanted to do anyway.

This issue does pose a real danger, but the warning is a one size fits all thing. I'd bet that 99.99% of the time this is no big deal. But, if you're the one in 10,000 where it does matter, it can be a very big deal.


kt4467

11:29AM | 02/13/06
Member Since: 02/12/06
1 lifetime posts
Hello. I am new here. I read all the posts in this thread with great interest. However, after reading, I am still unsure of one thing. Do newer surface mounted lighting fixtures generate more heat that traditional ones? Meaning: even though it would be wise to replace all 60 degree cable with 90 degree cable in such areas where it will go into a box that will have a light fixture, do I have to perform this replacement just because I have a new fixture?

FixHouse06

02:31PM | 02/13/06
Member Since: 11/03/05
2 lifetime posts
I think that the warnings should be on the outside of the boxes period. Or they could build a better lighting fixture.

The aggravation of picking out what you like only to have to return it . . . big timewaster.

I wonder if this is mostly a Home Depot thing - perhaps a better class lighting supply store would have better info. Anne

fugazi48

05:11PM | 03/09/06
Member Since: 03/08/06
192 lifetime posts
The new fixtures are not lower quality. They warning is there to advise people of a possible safety issue. Apparently the 60 degree wiring has been a source of fires in the past. Learn from others mistakes and rewire the dang boxes.

Why do people keep complaining about saving themselves some risk. Do you have a problem with GCFI outlets?

why don't you wrap your bedposts with Asbestos, that wasn't considered dangerous until the end of the 70s. I guess they must not make good asbestos anymore. (j/k)

I guess I have to put 6 or so new boxes in my attic and wire some pigtails. It is easier than doing when a home inspector visits whey you try to sell your house.


fugazi48

05:14PM | 03/09/06
Member Since: 03/08/06
192 lifetime posts
http://www.bobvilla.com/ArticleLibrary/Subject/Electrical/Boxes__and__Wiring/PreventingElectricalFires.html

everyone needs to read this.

vaderist

10:53AM | 10/05/08
Member Since: 10/04/08
1 lifetime posts
My house was built in 1930 and has cloth covered wiring throughout most of it. Some remodels have upgraded wiring. I want to install a new fixture on the first floor. I have plaster ceilings with no real access to the box, other than through the fixture. Am I to rip apart my plaster ceilings and walls to replace my outdated wiring to bring it up to code so I can install a new $30 light fixture?

LarryG

12:29PM | 10/05/08
Member Since: 07/22/04
649 lifetime posts
no you can fish wires through walls with a minimal amount of damage if you know what you're doing and you have the correct tools.i've done quite a bit of this and i know a lot of tricks and have lots and lots of tools.

but is the wire in such bad shape it won't handle this light fixture.

i could see not wanting to put an a/c or something but a 60 watt bulb?

it depends on the condition of the wire.

Werdnar

02:23PM | 06/07/09
Member Since: 06/06/09
1 lifetime posts
I was checking for information about wiring insulators for older homes - before 1985. Read about this on a light fixture purchased at Home Depot. The concern is when I removed the old fixture due to a spark and flicker, I noticed it was all black inside and the fixture wiring appeared to be burnt. I checked another fixture in the house and found the same thing: burnt fixture wires. Oh Oh - A real fire hazard.

Question: Where do I get fixtures with lower temperature ratings? Like 60 degrees C for wire? And, therefore help prevent an electrical fire.

Also, advice to one posting (which I read on this site) to go ahead and mount a fixture, ignoring the warnings was NOT a good answer.
8639 home wiring

BV001047

11:35PM | 05/16/13
Well!!! I'm glad that I found this site (subject). All the information that has been tossed around is good to know, but it can be confusing. I learned what I know about working with electrical wiring for a home from a friend that worked for the power company. I've done a lot of wiring projects and have't electrocuted myself, or burnt anything up yet. I do know that if there is anything I'm not sure about, that I'm working on I will look the problem up or ask someone that knows or get an licsensed electrician to fix it. I appreciate all the info. What brought me here is the new light fixtures that I just purchased from Lowe's, in the instruction manual it talks about checking the supply conductors and the branch circuit. I never did think to much about the min. 90 degree C supply conductors and the branch circuits conductor, but I have really learned a lot. My house was built in the 1955-65 era. I've changed all the lighting in the house over the last 15 years I've owned it, all but the master bath, that I'm now working on. I'm putting two pendant lights in, one on each side of our new medicine cabinet. I guess the pendants would not be as hazardous as the ceiling mount type, never the less I just changed all the light bulbs to the new CFL lights and I will be using them in my new lights also. I want to share this with anyone that might want to change. I went to my Power Co.'s web sight and did a home power survey and usage estimate and they sent me a whole box of the CFL bulbs, LID night lights and water saver heads for my fausets, free of charge just by doing the survey and usage estimate.
Mel

c

BV001433

07:49AM | 06/29/13
This is fascinating.

It turns out that rating a fixture for an incandescent bulb and rating for a CFL are, looking at it from a physicists point of view, DIFFERENT THINGS.

I just bought a fixture rated 100W incandescent that apparently can heat the box to up to over 60 deg C according to the warning. That means that if I put a 100W (actual wattage, not equivalent) CFL into it (well, the most I could get would be 66W for a 300W equivalent, but leave that aside), it would likely heat the box to over 60 deg C. But, if the bulb wall gets above 45 deg C the bulb loses efficiency and in a sense fails. This fixture would certainly heat the bulb to above 45 deg C if it heats the box to above 60 deg C, so it is not rated for 100W CFL (actual wattage, not equivalent) even if the box wires are 90deg C rated and the fixture is rated 100W incandescent.

CFL bulb wall and LED substrate temps, according to a quick scan of the web, both operate best noticeably below 45 deg C.

So fixtures should be rated for how many actual W they can handle and still keep the bulbs at say 40 deg C so the bulbs will remain efficient.
UL has not caught on yet it seems.

BV018310

12:59PM | 12/31/18
What if u use the new led bulbs which stay relatively cool,will the wiring still get hot or am I missing the point of this warning


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